A Few Suggestions, Suggestions

First let me say that I really like Abstraction. There's definitely enough about it to set it apart from other variations on the DS theme --- it has its own feel, its own atmosphere.

That said, I have a few suggestions and requests (and I'm sorry I haven't gotten around to posting these before now).

I would like to see more character choices for players in both SP and MP. The Dryad and Succubus NPCs, and the unused Amazon, would be interesting. Also, I saw someone mention having a SQ character. Will that be brought back? Can the armor issue be worked out? How about Blood Elves?

There is one area where I feel that the boundary between areas is a little too immediate, and the change in atmosphere/lighting happening so instantly is too intense. I'll check again and see where that is.

Could you add more directional markers, please? Also, having the narrator announce (up at the top of the screen) when a character has entered a certain region (as happens in the regular DS games) would be very helpful to newbies. Even now after having playtested Abstraction several times, I can yet get lost.

In MP, it would be helpful to have the Ghost appear at the statue in the start location chosen by the player, and have him remind the player of what her next objective is (yes, I know "changes to the world cannot be saved" and so on, but maybe there's a way to have the Ghost recognize what gemstones have been found and implemented, perhaps by using questbits?).

More side areas that can be explored (and adventured in) would also be entertaining. Mountainous and mesa areas are good for this sort of thing, and can include all kinds of unexpected surprises (as we know from the UP map), including the not very unexpected caves.

Speaking of caves though, I did feel a little claustrophobic in some of the cavern passages toward the end (and I'm not claustrophobic). Could those be widened just a bit?

One of the things that is so excellent about the UP map is that you can start in any town and get to any other town in a number of ways (even without using the HUB or Displacers). For an MP map, if you were planning to do an additional map for MP only, that's a feature I would like to see included.


This post has been edited by Giovanna del'Arco on Jul 30 2006, 03:43 PM

SP there are only the male or female Sea Elf choice, that will not be changed as that was what the project was built around. MP actually has more choices then most other siegelets, as there are several variations of the various elves and the normal character options. Though I am working on some new human/elf models to pick from. Their is an Amazon choice I think or maybe you can just pick her up in SP but then you can transfer her to MP to play. The Dryad and Succubus wouldnt really work since armors are not made for those characters, however I will likely be adding Elys Succubi in as choices in MP since I may use them in a secret area. As for the Succubus Queen it has the same armor issues, but I know Ghastley said he was working on it at one point but I do not know if he has done anything more with it since then. The Blood Elves I am not sure about. I have 2 mp characters myself, and there is a armor or 5 that is designed only for the Blood Elves (the females) but any armor would work with them since they are the same design as the regular elves, swamp elves, and sea elves.

In some transitions between areas there is no real background and vegetations to make a gradual break and a sudden one is needed. In most places a big change occurs things like caves and inside structures are used as a transition. If you can say which one you mean in particular that would help.

We kind of put signs up in places that are inhabited, in areas that are not populated by a city/town who would put them there and if they were there maybe the monsters destroyed them? As for entering areas that probably could be done, I am not sure since I dont build maps, but I think that a check would need to be done on your character and then we would need to have text files with the messages keyed to it.

Questbits is how he appears in the first place. The problem with what you are saying is that the only way I can think of getting it to work would be basically to have him always appearing at a statue and give the message of whatever gems you have on you at the time. Perhaps we could see about the questbits clearing after everytime the player quits the game. Though then when you talk to him at the start up you would get all the gem quests appearing at one time based on how many gems you may have in the amulet.

There are a couple side areas. More would be nice but mapping can get long and tedious, though using existing map areas and changing them in background setup or reversing them can make it look new. Dont know if anyone noticed but there are 2 areas in Abstraction that are pulled from other maps. One from LoA and one from Ehb. I would think the one from LoA should be able to be spotted but I doubt the one from Ehb would ever be recognized.

There are about 5-6 areas that are off to the side that you dont need to go to but are there.

I believe this was the intended purpose. At this point I know the way for a very fast trip through it but the first bunch of times it was confusing to me too..

I would easy agree that the UP map is the best DS map, one of several things I dont like about DS2, the mp sucks in DS2. There are a couple ways to go on the Abstraction map but for amount of work needed to do a really UP style map it would just be too much work. Plus for the quests it is almost a necessity to have it a bit linear. If you think it is hard to find the route now I imagine it would be really hard if it was more open to explore.

I have an Amazon (note my recent screen shot), but there are three other skins for Amazons used only for NPCs. If I'm not mistaken, the PC Amazon only has one option for hair color as well.

As for Dryads, they don't seem to look too different from Amazons, except in terms of size. Maybe you could increase the size of the Dryad for PCs, thus enabling them to wear armor? The same would, I think, apply to the Succubi, except for the wing issue. The Succubus Queen would really rock as a PC choice (but again, I would suggest more options for hair color). BTW, is she modelled after anyone? She looks familiar.

How about Callisto as a PC choice? Satyrs? Pit Fiends?

Actually, there are two areas that I was conflating in my mind. One is the area between two of the forested regions. In one region, there are smaller, deciduous trees, and the area is fairly well lit. Adjacent to it, however, is a denser wood, with taller trees that appear to be mostly evergreens, and upon entrance, the lighting dims significantly. The line between the two regions would be better if there was a more gradual shift, perhaps a border area with both sorts of trees, eventually increasing the one type as you get closer to the other region. This, however, is not as drastic of a change as in the other area I was thinking of.

The other area, where the change is most noticeable, is the shift from swamp to jungle. I think a more gradual change would again be better here. Perhaps some of the Weeping Willows from the jungle area could be included in the border area between the swamp and jungle regions. I also believe that Cypress trees would work better in the swamp than the trees there now, which appear to be Pines or the like. The slight difference in elevation which exists now does support a difference in bioregion between the two areas, but I still think a more gradual giving way would look better.

Kudos on the change from snowy outside into the entrance to one of the caverns where the entrance has a lot of snow scattered about. That's a nice transition.

(I also think that the transition from the Mt Utrae area into the swamp area in the UP map is a bit strained.)

Well, there is some dialogue in one of the maps (UP, I believe) from one of the Legion soldiers in which he says something about having to go out and replace signs occasionally, so although monsters might tear them down, if there's some soldier/guard whose job it is to replace them, that would explain their presence.

The narrator announcement of entering new areas would also have helped me identify the two border areas I was talking about above (I'm pretty sure the jungle I was talking about is called "The Jungles of the Amazon" or something like that, and the darker woodland I mentioned is, I believe, the Sylvan Forest --- the swampy area is that Swamp Elves spot, but I have no idea what the "light forest" area is called. It's near Crossroads).

The trouble is that when I start up in MP at the town I was in when I forged the last gem into the talisman, I'm not always sure where I'm supposed to go next. Maybe after playing the map more often, I'll have a better idea of where I'm supposed to be when, etc. In the meantime, though, and for "user-friendly" considerations, it would be nice to have a reminder.

I've found a few, yes (that one area with all the Shadow/Dark Lungers/Slingers/Casters is obviously intended for several players to cooperate; it's rough for my Amazon to solo even though she is now maxed out, but it's fun trying). There have also been places in the cave areas and mountainous areas where I've walked out on a ledge around a corner exploring and then been unable to get out of and back to the main path. One of those areas even had a Cave Troll follow me onto the ledge, but I still couldn't get back to the main path.

I suspect the LoA map area is a beach.

One more thing. I can't seem to get any maps from DS or LoA to be options for maps in Abstraction (other than Blue Fairy Realm and the Set Items Testmap, and of course the Abstraction Gemquest map). Have I installed it in the wrong folder, or is it just not compatible with the Ehb, UP, and LoA maps (and others, I would guess)?

Hehe, lots of stuff to comment back on but I am seeing this right as I am about to go to bed. I will wait until tomorrow evening for a answer post.

I have a fairly large ds1 map over at turbo squid do a search for (Joktan)
It is the "Never Ever Ending Land" It could have other areas "stitched" into it
the file itself is a bit messy as it has elys resources included into it and i dont believe I understood file hierarchy at the time of the posting but it is a cool map to explore nontheless and you may freely use it even for your abstraction or any project also the Philistine Map I think is cool for mini map ...I am sry i havent been aroud much

Hi, Joktan, and welcome again to the forums. I checked turbo squid for your stuff, and the page with the DS I map has two links to download, but both of them result in downloading of the jpeg, even though one is supposed to be the dsmap. Is there another link somewhere?

I dont know the size of your files but if you want to you should be able to attach the map to a post here. I moved Joktan to the Tester group so that he can use the higher file upload size limit. I have set it to about 10mb. You should be able to post zips, rars, dsmap, dsres files so you should be able to use any of the formats to post the map here. I can then post it to the download section on the main website as I do have plenty of space and bandwidth for it.

Sorry I did not get around to posting any answers last night. I kinda fell asleep on the couch after eating supper and woke up all groggy about 11pm so I just went to bed. I will get to it tonight. I am all rested up now.

Most of the Amazons have a bit of a skin issue. In that the armor look is built into their skin which is probably the reason I didnt make more choices for use. The Dryads are based on the farmgirl so they could be made to playable characters I would suppose but no reason to have them as playable other than just to have more character types and it wouldnt make any sense as none are good in the game. The Succubi models are not based on the farmgirl so they would have a lot more issues then the wings to get to work right.

The Callisto model does have a test pc version and it can wear armors but there are issues that cause transparency in the pc version when wearing armors. The Satyrs would be like the Hassat cats in that that can be done but no armors and there would be issues with different weapons types and magic. The Pit Fiends would be easy as pc's since they are just Elves with a different skin, but again they are totally corrupted elves and wouldnt make much sense as options, the Blood Elves may make sense and in one older release version you actually could choose the skin type when cycling through the regular elf choices. Maybe this could be re-added back in.

The main issue is there are not a lot of transition terrains existing in the game to use. Creating some new nodes is to use for this purpose is not easy work so I am thinking the transitions will likely stay as is. I dont think Monsoon really wants to spend a large chunk of time to get the transition to look better, and really I think that a whole additional region could be built in the same time. Personally I would prefer another region than a better transition.

We can look at adding some more signs. I am not sure of the name of the forest around Crossroads other than it is called the Crossroads region.

Your quest log should show the last conversation you had to tell you where to go next.

The peninsula is kind of intended as a way to level up your party before heading into the jungle as it can be rather hard if you just rush ahead without wandering around. The npc's that can join your party are a pretty good guide as to about what level you should be when you reach that location.

Beach LoA?? Keke, maybe.

The installation Abstraction was done purposely that other maps wouldnt be a choice for it. There was a reason for this, if the Abstraction map was placed in the regular map folder then the other start icons (for the regular games) could pick the map. And you could play it but much would not work as the dsres would need to be in the resources/loa folder and that would screw up any of your existing characters like that. There are 2 fairly easy ways to play the other maps. The easiest way, and to keep your characters seperate, is to copy the maps in your regular ds maps choices into the Abstraction Map folder. Regular maps exist in this location by default: C:\Program Files\Microsoft Games\Dungeon Siege\Maps and the LoA Map exists at: C:\Program Files\Microsoft Games\Dungeon Siege\DSLOA. The map folder for Abstraction is at (I believe, I did not make the exe but I did say with Wowsher where to set it up to, however I use a very convuluted setup that doesnt follow the normal or default Abstraction setup on my computer so I an not 100% sure on this): C:\Program Files\Abstraction. If nothing else right click the Abstraction start icon and pick properties, and then pick find change icon, this folder location it points to when clicking browse is where the files are, it would also be listed in the target line after res_paths= or user_path=. Otherwise you can put the Abstraction map in the regular map folder then change the actual target line to work to that location. But you would probably want to keep a separate res and user path for the Abstraction saves or there will be a lot of charcter messed up as res files would cause lots of possibly bad things for other mod character setups.

I can think of three areas that are like that, of which two are adjacent to each other, so maybe they only count as one. SJR has already mentioned the peninsula, but they are also in the desert and the path from it to the Black caves.

The peninsula ones are nothing like as nasty as the later ones. Especially combined with massed Snake women and a squigglefest of summoned snakes, as you can encounter in the Pyramids. That's a good test for your framerate with so many mobs all getting animated at once.

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On another topic, I've being working on the Succubus Queen playable, and the main holdup is getting a good skin map for her. She needs all her skin on a single 256x256 texture, so that it can be combined with the various armor textures. I have most of the extra animations done, as well as glove and boot meshes, so it's the A2 through A9 meshes and their texture maps that need my time. Witness did this for the Elves, so I have a good example to act as a guide for the skin layouts, but since she's showing a lot more skin, I have to do a better job.

Callisto with armor would end up looking like just another Amazon, so why bother?

The Satyr only has animations for Axes, so he'd be very restrictive to play.

The Naja has some other skins that aren't available on the MP menu. They wouldn't be difficult to add. You can see them at my web site - I think they're all there.

I've also played Abstraction with a few other characters that aren't in the game, such as Santa, Bo Peep, Little Red Riding Hood, and Nigel the Stockbroker, but that sort of thing requires modding the mod.

I'll look and see what happened to the Pack Rat, too. We tried it and a Pack Cow, but there were problems with them, so all you get is the regular Pack Mule.

This post has been edited by ghastley on Aug 4 2006, 12:54 PM

Okay, I understand that ... but they look so cool. I really like the ones in black with the dark red wings.

I wish I knew how to make maps, but I haven't gotten that far yet in my modding studies. At least I did finally figure out that my first mod (it's called Giovanna's Ultimate Destroyer) isn't bad as I originally thought after getting LoA (it just interferes with NPCs in LoA for some reason I haven't figured out yet, so it should only be used in DS I), so maybe I will release it after all.

In Multiplayer?

Awesome. Thanks. That works, at least for UP and LoA maps, and Valley Peek (or rather, one of Joktan's variations on Valley Peek). I haven't tried any of the others yet.

Desert? Pyramids? I missed an area (or two)? I went looking for them today and still didn't find them. Give me a hint?

I'm eagerly anticipating the finished product.

There are ways around the armor issue for the individual player (if he/she knows how to do it and doesn't object to bending the rules a bit), which would apply to Callisto, the SQ, and other character templates with the issue, and although I suppose that those techniques at least border on cheating, if the character cannot wear armor in the standard way, it doesn't seem so bad to make her so that she could wear it in a non-standard way. I suspect that some of you know what I mean (DS Guilds used to teach some of this stuff for PvP gaming purposes).

I'm guessing those (and other) mods will be made available once the final version of Abstraction is ready?

"Pack Rat." That's cute.

Re: the Amazons and their armor.

We had a problem with them when we started on their part of the map that we could not stop them dropping their armor and of course they were wearing more undressed than they did dressed! So I ended up making their armor the base skin, whether it was leather for the archers, or plate/chain for the Samnites. The only ones that did not have armor to start with were the mages, so that's how all the playable Amazons dress.

Callisto also has armor on her base mesh, but she could theoretically be remade as a plain amazon (with a custom head) and a unique armor, since you never fight her so she can't drop it. As a playable character, she would not be able to wear the Callisto costume, or she could take it off and give it to another player that it wouldn't fit. However, I'm not sure if the head is compatible with the standard helms. With a non-playable NPC, there are a lot of constraints you can ignore.

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I found an image of the Pack Rat from the Animation Viewer, but I'm still searching my hard drives for one in the game.

The other characters are available for download on My Webpage
but they're general-purpose stuff for mod developers to add to their resources, not complete mods. A new MP character has to be incorporated into some gas files for the map, and the more advanced maps need template changes to make them compatible. Santa also has no armored meshes, the others are essentially farmboy/girl costumes, so they can use standard armor but become farmboy/girl once you do that.

This post has been edited by ghastley on Aug 7 2006, 01:06 PM

Hi, Ghastley. Yes, I've seen your site before. I've downloaded the Asparagorn mod (but haven't gotten around to playing with it yet), and I've had the Lara mods for some time. I had also tried to download LRRH (tried again last night), but the zip never downloaded properly (it wouldn't extract), which is why I was hoping it might be done into a mod for Abstraction.

This post has been edited by Giovanna del'Arco on Aug 7 2006, 02:03 PM

You will need to defeat the "end" boss and have a completed talisman to enter that area. You can get there 2 ways. Continue on after beating the boss (think other end you couldnt get through before), or revisit the Sylvan Elves area as something may open that wouldnt before.

You can just give them the skin of the armor and then have a built in script that increases armor/hp/mana based on levels. Like done on the Hassat player mods or like the Shikari guys in LoH (though those have to hold the amulet thing to work and it can be done without it). However this makes finding armors pointless, as half the items of the game are the boots, gloves, helms, and body armor it takes half of the things out of play. Plus one of the things I like is being able to upgrade and to get different looks. Staying the same the whole time is rather dull to me.

At this point since DS/DSLoA are getting rather old and I am not sure there are many people looking for mods anymore I am not sure how many separate mods we would release. Though I am of the opinion that after it is done (if ever) all of the Abstraction files could be open source for anyone that is still working on DS mods could use it. There is a lot of new stuff that is used and a bunch of the new stuff is there but not really used. Just like there are lots of items and skins that are in the file but not used.

The Asparagorn are currently in use in Abstraction. They were just put in a area previously removed but added back just to have a place to put them for now. It is not likely the final use for them, I just wanted to have them somewhere for now.

*Other news/info*

This last weekend I started to put together some new npc's for either Abstraction or they could maybe be used on something separate, but tied to Abstraction. I am using some of the content in the China Mod I have listed in the download section. There has been no contact or noise from ahui58 so I can only assume he is no longer doing anything with it or since he is behind the Great Firewall of China he wasnt able to give any updates or completed works. I know he was planning on using the content for a siegelet (dont know if he planned new map or was just going to use Ehb/UP) but I wanted to use some of the content as currently nothing takes advantage of it. With the new characters skins I will be able to make over 100 new npc's for various types of characters. Pretty much all is a bit altered as any items have Chinese in them and frankly I dont know what a lot of what is written means so I would give new values anyway for the items (which I have not worked on yet) and there are some cool new item designs, espcially in swords and armor skins. The only bad thing is that all the new characters from the China mod are female so there will be a bit of duplication of the male character looks. Keeping them apart from similar looks and giving them completely different armors should help make it not so apparent. I am also going to use a few things from Elys Succubus mod, and actually several of the templates are based on what she did already so now it is just adding some of the items/looks I liked. Using these is one reason they are likely to be used in bonus areas that are not vital as I would rather the main arc of the quests/story be our material or very altered material from others. The readme credits (when if ever done) will have the list of what was actually used.

Ahhh. I thought those doors were just things that had not yet been implemented. I guess I should have been thinking of the door to the Disco Level that won't open till the SJ is defeated.

Though going all the way back to the Sylvan Elves area seems quite a trek (and I suppose it wouldn't work in multiplayer unless you did it in the same game after killing the boss). I'll try the other doors in the Pit, then.

I can understand wanting to get different looks. I'm sure Joktan remembers my fascination with having several different wardrobes for each character. And I also understand the collection of different armors and sets. However, some character meshes do have a certain appeal in themselves. I wish Witness had made some armors that look like the outfits the Elf girls are wearing when they start, for example, and the Amazon mesh in Abstraction looks good in itself, too.

Well, since DS I and DS LoA are so much easier to mod than DS II, I suspect a lot of the modding community will keep making mods for those older games, or move on to other games. From what I've seen and heard, attempts to mod DS II have been rather frustrating, though I haven't looked to see what people are saying about the DS II expansion yet. I remember Elys saying she might be back around when that came out, and here's hoping she does come back. No offense to anyone else, but she and Witness have done some really amazing things, and their departure from the DS modding community has been a loss to us all.

Besides, DS Abstraction isn't old --- it's not even finished yet, so it can't really be considered old, and I think it should be regarded as a total conversion, not just a mod, so mods for Abstraction, while still using the "old" engines, would be something new.

In addition, I have introduced other people to DS I, Yesterhaven, LoA, and Abstraction (some of them quite recently), and they seem to really enjoy not only the games themselves, but also the mods and maps and conversions as well.

Yes, I've been to what I call "The Asparagorn Quadrangle" (almost every time I play, in fact, unless I'm closer to the end than to the beginning). Great place to find set items. Whatever you decide to do with the Asparagorns in the final version of Abstraction, I hope they're in the game somewhere, and the idea of a place where the compass is meaningless is a novel and entertaining one. Besides, the scenery there (such as it is) is really attractive. That screenshot I posted with all the green was taken in that area.

Well, I think you know already that I'm a big fan of Elys' work, so of course I applaud the decision to use some of her stuff. But I also like the Abstraction version of Succubi. Those wings are just too cool, and the fact that they have the topknot/ponytail hairdo is also a plus. I'll also admit to liking the string bikini outfits a bit.

As I said before, I tried to download the LRRH stuff from Ghastley's site several times, and each time it could not be extracted, kept telling me that the download was corrupt. Is that just me, or was the upload itself corrupt?


This post has been edited by Giovanna del'Arco on Aug 19 2006, 07:27 PM